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Author Topic: Audi C6 S6 v10 Info Dump  (Read 234283 times)
v8a6
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« on: July 05, 2014, 11:29:24 AM »

Audi C6 S6 v10 Info Dump



I recently purchased a high-mileage (130K miles) 07 Audi S6.  I have high-performance plans for the car, but want to get everything running smoothly before the real modding begins.   I looked around the web for details of the common issues with these cars.  What I found were several accounts from people who had relatively no issues with them, a few horror stories from actual owners, and a lot of ‘expert’ opinions regarding the cars from people who had never even driven one.   So, CountVohn and I both thought it would be a good idea to pull all the info together in a single thread, as a guide for anyone who owns one of these cars, or is interested in purchasing one.  Before we get into the mechanical stuff, a quick breakdown of what makes the v10 S6 different than the regular C6 A6.

2007 Audi S6 MSRP $74,020 USD


The GOOD


The seats





The seats in this car are amazing.  Very comfortable.  Lots of support.  Look great with integrated head rest.  Wear well (my high mileage ones show no significant wear).  Made by Recaro (I believe).  

I have seen a few S6's with comfort seats instead of the Recaros.  I don't know who would want this, but there are a few out there.


The v10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxaup9anuk

Somehow Audi managed to stuff their 5.2L v10 under the hood of the S6.  It makes 435hp stock (450hp in the S8 with only difference being the factory tune) and (398 lbf•ft) of torque from 3,000 to 4,000 rpm.  There are magazine reports of ¼ mile times in the low 13s, however, I haven't been able to find any people with actual timeslips from the track to verify these times.  So far, the only one I can vouch for is an unofficial one from my car, and that was up in the 15s (taken on a private road - no laws were broken).  So, until we have some timeslips we can guess that the car is somewhere in the 14-16s range stock.  I hope to have some time slips from the track in the future to see where these cars are really at.  (please provide if you have them)

The v10 also has the ‘rare’ factor.  Only the S6, S8, R8, and Gallardo get some version of it.  It will often be a conversation starter with many Audi enthusiasts.  


The exhaust sound

The stock exhaust sounds very good, and it only gets WAY better with an aftermarket exhaust.  


The exterior

Over the regular A6, the S6 gets the more aggressive front bumper, signature S6 grill, LED strip fog lights (not in Canada, eh?), quad exhaust tips, larger door blades, lowered suspension, Xenon headlights, 19-inch wheels, flared front fenders, and a ‘v10’ badge Smiley  Yet still, the average person wouldn’t notice a difference from a run of the mill A6.


The Options

You will find that most of the S6s on the used market a heavily decked out.  I believe they all got MMI and the keyless start.  Canada didn’t get the LED fog lights, but I am looking to see how easy they can be added aftermarket.  Many came with Carbon interior trim, and some with the package which included the backup camera.

The brakes



385mm front brakes, 330mm rear stock.


Drive ratio and F/R split

S6 has a final drive of 3.8:1 with a 40:60 split.  (I dont have the data on the regular A6)


The handling

The handling of the car with stock suspension is surprisingly good.  I agree with many of the reviews, that it seems overly stiff for no reason.  My first mod was to swap out the stock shocks for coilovers and add an H&R rear sway.  But for those who want to keep it stock, the factory suspension is not bad.

The S6 also has larger sway bars than the A6.  I am not sure if the steering is more aggressive than the regular A6, as it was on the previous generation.  Audi tends to change a lot of little stuff on the S-cars, but doesnt always publish everything.




The price (USED)

Depreciation has hit the S6 pretty hard.  With an original base price about ten grand higher than the 07 RS4 (RS4: $94K CAD vs S6: $102K CAD base plus taxes) an 07 S6 with the same mileage (e.g 120K kms) is probably about ten grand cheaper (low 20s vs low 30s) on the used market.  And, it is not hard to find an S6 for under $20k CAD.  What is bad for the original owners is great for anyone looking for one now.  I have a feeling that the rareness and lack of knowledge of the v10 is a contributing factor to the dropping values on these cars. I don’t know where rock bottom is for the value of these cars, but the lower you are when you buy one, the less you have to fall Smiley


The Rarity

As mentioned earlier, the average person probably wouldn’t know the difference between the S6 and the A6 of the same year (until they hear the exhaust, that is).  But, Audi enthusiasts will quickly notice it, and will always want to know more about it.



07 S6 spec sheet


The BAD

the v10

While it is nice to have a rare engine in theory, it is not nice to have one when you need to get work done on the car.  Since they are rare, the average independent, or even Audi dealership, are not going to see them that often.  So, diagnostics may take longer and cost more money.  There are less ‘known issues’ and more just plain issues.  

10 cylinders and two intake tracks means more to maintain.  When you do your carbon clean, replace coil packs, injectors, spark plugs, etc. there is 20% more over a v8 and 40% over a v6.  

Heat soak on the v10 in the cramped engine compartment of the S6 is extremely bad.  It is yet to be seen if headers and hi-flow cats can add some relief.  I think a CAI may help, like the one this guy has on his A6

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/505617-TRUE-COLD-AIR-intake!!!

However, that would entail changing to a single throttle body.  So, Ill leave that to when we talk about performance options.


Carbon Buildup



The v10 is prone to carbon buildup.  Multiple user reports show that carbon can buildup and rob power.  Following is a great writeup from a user who gained 55tq and 25hp to the wheels after a carbon clean.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2796154

Here is another from B6JoeS4
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=230.0

Following is a great thread from a guy who purchased an S6 sight unseen, online, and almost immediately started getting a CEL and began having problems with the car.  Car was four years old with 50k miles on it, and I am going to assume was never carbon cleaned before he got it.  He replaced a bunch of things under warranty to the tune of $25k (warranty prices).

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/558419-Things-you-probably-want-to-get-looked-at-when-you-buy-a-used-2008-S6

He attributes most of the repairs to issues caused by carbon buildup.  That being said, it seems he had a very good relationship with the shop and warranty company, and replaced almost anything that was suspect.  He links replacement of the following items to the carbon buildup

  • Oil Separator
  • Fuel Injectors
  • Fuel Pumps
  • EGR/Combination Valves

There are also reports of intake manifold issues due to carbon buildup.  The guy above had his walnut-shell blasted, while it sounds like other people are having theirs replaced.  I will update when I have more details on the cases.  The intake manifold on my car does not seem to be functioning properly, so I will report what we find when it is opened up.


S6 vs A6 3.0t

On internet forums, users like to argue that the A6 3.0t is a much better car for the money than the S6.  Ynnekdude has a timeslip for 12.63 with an APR S2 tune and CAI.  So, the argument definitely has merit.  As listed above, the S6 has a lot of unique features that aren’t easily adapted to the A6 (front bumper, flared front fenders, seats, etc).  But if you want to base it purely on straight line performance, then the A6 will be cheaper to get into the 12s.  It has yet to be determined if the S6 can get into the 12s without FI.


Performance

Although magazines were reporting the 1/4 mile in the 13s, and 0-60 in the 5s, real world reports from users often describe the car acceleration as disappointing, and feeling less powerful than the published HP/TQ numbers would indicate.  I have some unofficial acceleration results, but I am going to wait for official track results before updating this section.


Weight

The S6 is a big car and heavy.  Wikipedia states the following curb weights

Saloon: 1,910 kg (4,210.8 lb)
Avant: 1,970 kg (4,343.1 lb)

However, online magazines often quote the car as 4400 pounds.  I would like to update this section with an official stock weight.  So, if anyone weighs the car in stock form, please let me know.

The good news is that there should be a few areas for easy weight reduction.  Lightweight Wheels, battery, spare removal and rotors, could easily shave about 150-200 pounds.

Stock wheel weight is around 63 pounds with non-OEM tire.  That puts the stock wheel somewhere in the 35-pound range without tire.  Use of lightweight wheel and tire could save up to 20 pounds per wheel



Engine drop for maintenance or repair

The following items require about 20 hours of labor to replace, since they require the engine to be dropped

  • O2 sensors
  • Catalytic converters (should be covered under emission components warranty)
  • Timing chain guides
  • Timing chains
  • Starter
  • Certain seals on the rear of the engine

That being said, there have not been widespread reports of any of these items constantly failing.  When I purchased my car I was worried about the timing chain guides.  But, after searching the web extensively, I havent been able to find any occurrences of their failure being reported on the S6.  So, at very least it is a rare occurrence to have a problem with them.

The one that most concerns me most is the O2 sensors.  These are essential to keep the car running smoothly, and on previous Audi's I have owned, needed to be replaced quite often.  When we get to the performance option, we will talk about replacing the stock catalytic converters with hi-flow units (or running catless) and the moving the cats and O2 sensors to a more easily accessible location downstream.

Anyway, if you have to drop the engine for any of the above items, it is good to do a check of the rest while you are there.



Aftermarket Performance Options


Suspension

H&R makes both lowering springs and coilovers for the S6
KW v3 are also available in S6 fitment

H&R A6 rear sway is not listed as compatible with the S6, however I fit it on the STIFF setting without issue (SOFT setting has an issue, but also on some A6s)


Exhaust

It looks like the most readily available exhaust is the Milltek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d71R_a3agIo

Sounds very good.  The small 60mm exhaust diameter is unlikely to add much performance over the stock (which is 2.25" - to be confirmed)

Milltek Resonated S6 5.2 V10 FSI Quattro with quad rolled 80mm Jet Tips. This system uses twin 2.36" diameter piping carrying all the power to the rear tips.  MSRP about $2k

JHM is rumored to be working on a catback and long-tube headers.  I will post more details as they become available.


Engine components

Forged Rods


http://www.theboombopshop.com/Carrillo-Forged-Rods-Audi-5-2L-FSI-V10-p/vw-5.2v10-8m6063s-10.htm



CAI

There is no off-the-shelf CAI available for the car.  With the heat-soak issues, it would seem that adding one  may lead to a gain in performance.  There is a custom one that one user did on his 3.0t A6

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/505617-TRUE-COLD-AIR-intake!!!

Possibly, something like this could be adapted to the S6.  I am not sure if it could be run down both sides or would require changing to a single throttle body.  Stock throttle bodies are dual 68mm, so opening up to one or two bigger ones may be useful.


Potential Performance Gains


After many discussions with CV and other users on this board, it would seem that performance gains could be had by addressing several areas:

  • Reducing engine heat soak and intake air temperature
  • Increasing Intake/Exhaust air flow
  • Eliminating or reducing Carbon buildup
  • ECU/TCU tuning
  • Weight Reduction


Air Filters

B6JoeS4 contributed some great data on the stock air filters

I installed K&N filters on the S6 that I did and they were the same size as stockers.  Here is the info on them.  Part number is E-2996

The flange the filter mounts to is 3.125"
The fliter itself is 6" diameter
The filter is 4.25" long.

Flatten that out and you have a panel that is almost 19" long and of course 4.25 wide.    AREA: 80"  (x2 filters so 160")
I seem to remember that the end of the stock factory filters are pleated and cone shaped, so that would add to the surface area of the filter.

S4 and RS4 filters are 10.3 x 8.25 so AREA is 84"

Thickness of the filter will probably make a difference here, but I suspect it is not enough to wash out the difference and put the V8 filter in the lead

Making up a measurement number for the hell of it.  Square inches of filter per liter.
5.2 V10...........30.8 per liter
4.2 V8.............19.0 per liter.

SO the V10 filter sizes would appear to be plenty and not a major restriction.  That airbox is tiny though.



Also to note, the filters on my car were all clogged up with dirt and debris.  I have seen the same thing from other cars on the web.  I dont know if it is the location of the airboxes, or maybe no one is checking these things, but clogged air filters seems to be a common issue.





Maintenance and Tech articles

C6 TSB Library
Intake manifold removal by Paul F
S6 Intake Manifold investigation by Paul F






To be continued…
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 12:13:12 PM by v8a6 » Logged
Meistah
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2014, 12:08:00 PM »

Crazy, an S6 is cheaper in some instances than an S4 of the same year. Looking forward to seeing more info!
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'08 RS4


« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2014, 01:43:54 PM »

Very cool - looking forward to your update!  Car looks great for the mileage!
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2014, 02:02:38 PM »

One bad is the hollow cams can break, on various forums I've seen two such occurrences.
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v8a6
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2014, 02:13:44 PM »

One bad is the hollow cams can break, on various forums I've seen two such occurrences.

Thanks for the info Scotty.  I hadn't heard that one.  If you dont mind, please send me links to the threads, as I am attempting to validate all info in this thread with actually first-hand user reports.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 02:15:25 PM by v8a6 » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2014, 02:20:48 PM »

One bad is the hollow cams can break, on various forums I've seen two such occurrences.

Thanks for the info Scotty.  I hadn't heard that one.  If you dont mind, please send me links to the threads, as I am attempting to validate all info in this thread with actually first-hand user reports.

Fabulous idea. You'll find most issues people worry about are founded in false hearsay. I myself can't see Audi making hollow camshaft parts considering how long the camshaft would have to be in a v10.

I've been intrigued by the v10 Audi offering in the past. It'll be nice to see someone put something together on a more detailed scale.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 02:25:11 PM by My S5(afe) Hyden » Logged
v8a6
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2014, 02:39:17 PM »

Yes, that is the idea.  Have one thread with all the facts, and kill all the misinformation that is floating around the web regarding these cars.

Just checked the v10 study guide, and found the following...

To reduce the weight of rotating parts, the camshafts are
manufactured from a hollow tube and mount-on cams.


I will post the study guides themselves as a reference on a later update
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 03:04:15 PM »

Interesting. Wonder if other Audi motors have this. More importantly if the camshaft actually breaks.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 03:35:02 PM »

If you type "audi broken camshaft" into google, you get a few hits.  Nothing at all for the Audi v10 (and none for the S6).  And I have never seen any reports of it personally, after doing many hours of reading up on these cars.

If there were actual first-hand reports, then the first thing would be to determine why the camshaft broke.  Was it due to failure of another component first, user modification or abuse, salvage or rebuilt title vehicle, an issue with the camshaft design itself, or unknown.  So, until we get the reports to try and figure out what actually happened, then I would not be able to include it.

When I writeup the BAD it will strictly include known issues with validated, widespread, first-hand owner or mechanic reports.  For example, carbon buildup.  We know that is a major issue with these engines (and a bunch of others).

When I get to Areas of Concern section, which will be a list of things to check to ensure your car is in tip-top shape, I think what we are going to see is that the majority of the things that go wrong on these cars, and lead to a degradation in performance, are due to a lack of carbon cleaning during the first few years of ownership, or thereafter.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:34:37 PM by v8a6 » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 05:31:47 PM »

 Validated information on all accounts, good and bad is really needed. Great start, great looking car.
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v8a6
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 05:46:10 PM »

Thanks CV, and good point.

I'm going to edit the 1/4 mile references, since they come from magazine reports, and not actual track reports.  Until we get some actual ones from the track, we will have to treat the 1/4 mile times as unknown.  I know that my car was no where close to 13 seconds, or even in the 14s on an unofficial test.

Anyone with timeslips from the track for these cars, please let me know.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:10:48 PM by v8a6 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 06:25:47 PM »

Let's go to Cayuga in October or November.   Will you be stock?
. Also it might be helpful to add the usd msrp information in your great op
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 06:44:27 PM »

Let's go to Cayuga in October or November.   Will you be stock?
. Also it might be helpful to add the usd msrp information in your great op

I'm down for Cayuga in the Fall !!!  If I have the car back by then, that is.

But, I dont think the car will be stock.  It is currently in CV's hands getting the full JHM treatment.  Hopefully, Ill have it back by October/November, but it is impossible to tell until we are further along in the project.

Good idea on MSRP.  Ill track it down and add it.

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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 08:08:26 PM »

Oh it's getting some JHM stuff done already? Cool.   It will be a shame for my rs4 to have to rape it and annoy CV.

Maybe we should go to Sparta or st Thomas I think it's now called.   Half way between us and Detroit.  Would be cool if CV's new B6 is up and running too.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 08:31:49 PM »

Maybe we should go to Sparta or st Thomas I think it's now called.   Half way between us and Detroit.  Would be cool if CV's new B6 is up and running too.

Yeah, if we can all go together I am definitely in.  CV and I already talked about a possible group trip to the track in the Fall.  For me, It just depends on the car at this point.  There are a lot of variables in the project, so this early on it is difficult to say when it will be ready.  We are aiming for three months, but very hard to tell.  Worse case scenario, I can always take the old C5 S6.  My butt dyno tells me it is faster than the C6 (however, I think the C6 has a few undiagnosed issues to be resolved, along with carbon cleaning)

Oh it's getting some JHM stuff done already? Cool.   It will be a shame for my rs4 to have to rape it and annoy CV.

If you keep taunting CV enough, maybe he will throw a spare blower on the car just to make a point Smiley


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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2014, 09:26:55 PM »

Oh it's getting some JHM stuff done already? Cool.   It will be a shame for my rs4 to have to rape it and annoy CV.

Maybe we should go to Sparta or st Thomas I think it's now called.   Half way between us and Detroit.  Would be cool if CV's new B6 is up and running too.

We have been in this boat before with the B7 (JHM tuned) Vs Rs4 race Smiley. The project won't be started for several more week. We are waiting for some of the test results to come back and to make sure we look into some little issues the car has first.
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I'd just sell as mint and get a GT3


« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2014, 04:21:16 PM »

I have a thread on here I think about my friend's S6.  I did a carbon cleaning on it. 

And I agree, the heat soak is horrible on these cars.  Usually stock tunes are so neutered that they have room to compensate for heat soak.  Not this car.
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 06:00:34 PM »

I have a thread on here I think about my friend's S6.  I did a carbon cleaning on it.  

And I agree, the heat soak is horrible on these cars.  Usually stock tunes are so neutered that they have room to compensate for heat soak.  Not this car.

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=230.0

Here's your thread lol.

Maybe some IM spacers are in order... Can't wait to see what happens with this car.


Oh and for some vintage AR content you can see some of tweets last posts before he went off the deep end.


Edit: The interiors on these cars look amazing, very modern despite being 7+ years old.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 06:03:08 PM by Meistah » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2014, 06:46:45 PM »



Edit: The interiors on these cars look amazing, very modern despite being 7+ years old.


that's because the A8 and A6 interiors cascade down to the A4 next generation.  So if you want to see what your B8 S4 interior looks like, just go drive a 2007 S6.  Or if you want to see what the B9 interior will look like, go check out the C7
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2014, 06:53:00 PM »

Thanks for the info, guys.

JHM is rumored to already have IM spacers ready for the v10 that are said to perform very well.  From what I heard, they are in the testing stage at the moment.
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 08:09:14 PM »

I have a thread on here I think about my friend's S6.  I did a carbon cleaning on it.  

And I agree, the heat soak is horrible on these cars.  Usually stock tunes are so neutered that they have room to compensate for heat soak.  Not this car.

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=230.0

Here's your thread lol.

Maybe some IM spacers are in order... Can't wait to see what happens with this car.


Oh and for some vintage AR content you can see some of tweets last posts before he went off the deep end.


Edit: The interiors on these cars look amazing, very modern despite being 7+ years old.

Thanks B6JoeS4 and Meistah.... I added the link to the carbon section.  Great first hand experience.
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2014, 05:42:17 PM »

S6 horror story

Owner buys used 08 S6 with 21k miles.  Car is consuming oil.  Has dealership run oil consumption tests and finds 1.8Qrts of oil consumed every 1000 miles.

Dealer investigates further and finds cylinder wall damage.  Diagnosis: engine replacement needed

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/592401-S6-v10-5-2L-Oil-Consumption?p=9907691#post9907691
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 07:23:39 PM »

How terrible. I'd see if you can just get pictures from him and post them here.
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2014, 04:14:49 AM »

How are the pistons and rods made...cast? I think I read that up above
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2014, 06:22:21 AM »

How terrible. I'd see if you can just get pictures from him and post them here.

Yes, I have messaged him about getting pics, and will post them here if he sends them.

Ill see if he has any info on the car history too. 
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