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Author Topic: B8 S4 headers bank or bust?  (Read 22644 times)
Jspazz
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Ilspazzaneve


« Reply #125 on: March 10, 2013, 08:22:57 PM »

Interestingly no comments about CVs post.  I thought it was great since it touched on all the conversation, and expanded on what I was wondering about stage III.  Thanks CV for the insight...

In all the motors I have seen, there was never an instance where increasing the primary tube diameter and increasing the length of the primary didn't gain power.  The manufacturer has always went conservative and usually for reasons of packaging, heat rejection, and longevity, and had no problem forsaking a few percent of VE to meet the reliability and NVH concerns.

In many instances when the valve overlap is played with, there can be exceptional gains with headers and tuning the resonant length for the sweet spot.  It's a component of what makes a motor able to achieve a higher than 100% VE, because the vacuum pulse returned from the collector will suck enough fresh charge in the open overlapped intake/exhaust valves.  It's pretty certain that most OEM cast log manifolds haven't bothered to take advantage of this.

Hey, how come we aren't logging valve overlap...? I know only our intake side is variable, but I'd be surprised if this wasn't part of the key to making headers work on a particular tune.
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sakimano
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« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2013, 08:59:27 PM »

The supersprint headers for the rs4 cost power,  didn't make it.   It fit your description... But wouldn't fit your everytime rule.

There are plenty of ways to fuck up a header design. Or to make it only slightly worthwhile.
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Jspazz
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Ilspazzaneve


« Reply #127 on: March 10, 2013, 09:21:23 PM »

Sure, I guess I should have qualified it by comparing to factory logs, like I did in the next paragraph.  The RS4 was definitely one of the few cars to have tubular headers from the factory...even the 911 comes with loggies.  I don't know about the supersprint results for power (sure, point a link), but FWIW they usually do a lot of MAHA testing to go with the product. 

But it's always much too expensive for what you're getting from them.  i have the supersprint x-pipe on my M5, I shudder to think how much the previous owner of my car paid for something a guy could have done in the exhaust shop for a few hundred installed.
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Paperybutnotplasticy
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« Reply #128 on: March 10, 2013, 10:00:40 PM »

Very informative post CV, I have one question for you. Does the same logic apply to direct Injected forced induction engines?
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beemercer
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« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2013, 06:05:16 AM »

The RS4 was definitely one of the few cars to have tubular headers from the factory...

my new to me old ass audi has a factory tube header Cheesy
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91gl
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« Reply #130 on: March 11, 2013, 07:05:03 AM »

The RS4 was definitely one of the few cars to have tubular headers from the factory...

my new to me old ass audi has a factory tube header Cheesy

Coupe quattro or v8 quattro?
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sakimano
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« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2013, 07:16:13 AM »

^^^check the classics section

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=1572.0

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NY07RS4
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« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2013, 10:36:22 AM »

Great post CV. I'm sure many appreciate it even if they don't comment.
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« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2013, 11:17:09 AM »

Very interesting stuff from CV. Their success on the B6/7 cars is no coincidence. $500 for the JHM tune from this man is a bargain!
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...those guys would have bought a box full of sheep shit if it was packaged in a shop with a lift and a shiny floor and came with a nice dyno chart. If you tried to tell them their box of sheep shit stunk, they'd cry that you were a sheep-shit hater....
notarmed
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« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2013, 04:21:58 PM »

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/527321-My-Eurocode-Header-Install/page2

This wellarmed character is hilarious...  He drove days to get the headers and tune and paid thousands yet he doesn't "have all day to spend at a dyno"... Really?  This is after he rebuffs a legit question about the headers with " it's whats underneath the curve and the improved torque that's matters to me"...  Oh and he's "almost double the tq numbers from a stage I". So you should go with the headers...  Unreal and then the dude he blew off gets it and says he needs to save some cash!  Ouch!  So sad...

Oh and paper, really?  What happened to the 400+ dyno on 91 stage I tune that was posted?  Probably used the same dyno as you...  My car is so sad...  It only dynos 361awhp...  I wonder what kind of times I would run if I made the power you guys make?  Lol.

Funny how none of these threads on that other site about headers mentions the real world testing imola and I did...  I wonder why?

Wow../Ran across this forum while searching for some other audi related info. 

I am new to the automotive tuning world, and admittedly do not know as much as you/others do about tuning these cars.

I am not a drag strip guy -- I raced motocross my whole life, but when I had a family (2009) I sold the bikes.  After finally figuring out this parent thing, I am ready to jump into a safer hobby.  With age, you get a cage.

I will try and make it out to the 1/4 mile strip to give another data point.

Next time you are in Seattle, look me up, I will buy you a pint.

Now back to your regular AZ bashing...
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notarmed
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« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2013, 04:31:26 PM »

They won't address it because the sad reality is the majority of audi owners (s4, rs4 etc)  don't actually care if they are fast... They just want to say they are fast in conversation.  They want to say 'I make so and so hp'.  The dyno is great for this type of person. That's what drives all that tomfoolery.  

Truthfully your 361 whp dyno sheeet means as much to me as papers 492 whp dyno sheet...they both  prove that ink sticks to paper,  and nothing else.

Agreed...  I just state my dyno #'s to draw comparisons and show how ludicrous their's are...  I am pretty sure you know what matters to me...  April can't come soon enough...

Also, I watched his(well_armed) video...  His 13 DSG shortshifts everytime in that video...  I bet he wouldn't run a 12.5 on race gas, not that he will ever go to the track...  Sure does have a nice dyno though... lol 

Damn near criminal what EC and their customers are doing to others by pushing these headers...     


This is not exact science, but it gives you a rough idea on the differences between stage 1 with headers and stage 2.

Caveat:
-Same Dyno
-Different days

We both had the same intake and aftermarket exhausts.

2012 DSG
APR Stage 2:
HP: +60.52
TQ: +44.45


2013 DSG
Stage 1 + Headers:
HP: +77.54
TQ: +62.67



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clochner
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« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2013, 04:34:15 PM »

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/527321-My-Eurocode-Header-Install/page2

This wellarmed character is hilarious...  He drove days to get the headers and tune and paid thousands yet he doesn't "have all day to spend at a dyno"... Really?  This is after he rebuffs a legit question about the headers with " it's whats underneath the curve and the improved torque that's matters to me"...  Oh and he's "almost double the tq numbers from a stage I". So you should go with the headers...  Unreal and then the dude he blew off gets it and says he needs to save some cash!  Ouch!  So sad...

Oh and paper, really?  What happened to the 400+ dyno on 91 stage I tune that was posted?  Probably used the same dyno as you...  My car is so sad...  It only dynos 361awhp...  I wonder what kind of times I would run if I made the power you guys make?  Lol.

Funny how none of these threads on that other site about headers mentions the real world testing imola and I did...  I wonder why?

Wow../Ran across this forum while searching for some other audi related info. 

I am new to the automotive tuning world, and admittedly do not know as much as you/others do about tuning these cars.

I am not a drag strip guy -- I raced motocross my whole life, but when I had a family (2009) I sold the bikes.  After finally figuring out this parent thing, I am ready to jump into a safer hobby.  With age, you get a cage.

I will try and make it out to the 1/4 mile strip to give another data point.

Next time you are in Seattle, look me up, I will buy you a pint.

Now back to your regular AZ bashing...

Welcome to the forum.  Do you drive a B8?  Are you running the headers?  I'm a little confused about the point of your post.

I was reading this on my phone and actually thought u offered to buy a joint.  Lol - well I guess that's legal now by you guys in any event.
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B8 S4 - back to stock (for now).
notarmed
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« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2013, 04:44:50 PM »

Apparently I am the guy primetime has a reverse man-crush on, well_armed .

But yes, I have EC headers installed.

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sakimano
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« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2013, 04:50:45 PM »

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/527321-My-Eurocode-Header-Install/page2

This wellarmed character is hilarious...  He drove days to get the headers and tune and paid thousands yet he doesn't "have all day to spend at a dyno"... Really?  This is after he rebuffs a legit question about the headers with " it's whats underneath the curve and the improved torque that's matters to me"...  Oh and he's "almost double the tq numbers from a stage I". So you should go with the headers...  Unreal and then the dude he blew off gets it and says he needs to save some cash!  Ouch!  So sad...

Oh and paper, really?  What happened to the 400+ dyno on 91 stage I tune that was posted?  Probably used the same dyno as you...  My car is so sad...  It only dynos 361awhp...  I wonder what kind of times I would run if I made the power you guys make?  Lol.

Funny how none of these threads on that other site about headers mentions the real world testing imola and I did...  I wonder why?

Wow../Ran across this forum while searching for some other audi related info. 

I am new to the automotive tuning world, and admittedly do not know as much as you/others do about tuning these cars.

I am not a drag strip guy -- I raced motocross my whole life, but when I had a family (2009) I sold the bikes.  After finally figuring out this parent thing, I am ready to jump into a safer hobby.  With age, you get a cage.

I will try and make it out to the 1/4 mile strip to give another data point.

Next time you are in Seattle, look me up, I will buy you a pint.

Now back to your regular AZ bashing...

Welcome to the forum.  Do you drive a B8?  Are you running the headers?  I'm a little confused about the point of your post.

I was reading this on my phone and actually thought u offered to buy a joint.  Lol - well I guess that's legal now by you guys in any event.

He is 'well armed '  from audizine

Hey wellarmed/notarmed:  was that Dyno if the other car a car with catalytic converters?   And are your headers catless?

Looks like a 17-18 whp/wtq gain across the board.  Would be interesting to see another similarly modded car with 034 hfc or test pipes.
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notarmed
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« Reply #139 on: April 01, 2013, 04:55:56 PM »

Yes, he had stock headers with APR's catback.

Mine are off the shelf Eurocode catless headers matched to the milltek.
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81bear
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« Reply #140 on: April 01, 2013, 05:02:41 PM »

Lol... I like that "reverse man-crush"...
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primetime
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« Reply #141 on: April 01, 2013, 05:11:38 PM »

Apparently I am the guy primetime has a reverse man-crush on, well_armed .

But yes, I have EC headers installed.



LOL!  Welcome to the forum...  Hopefully, you're not here to sell headers because you won't fair as well as you do on vendorzine...  Already seen your dyno's and read all of your comments, no need to review it here...  At the end of the day as long as your happy with the headers then don't worry about what I think...  It really doesn't matter does it?  Enjoy the site, lots to learn over here hope you can contribute...  later Ron      
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Slow B8 S4...
Slower TT-RS...
notarmed
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« Reply #142 on: April 01, 2013, 05:25:42 PM »

I am tuner agnostic.  If it does not provide gains, it is coming off.

I will post some track times once they open up. 

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Jspazz
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Ilspazzaneve


« Reply #143 on: April 01, 2013, 06:23:03 PM »

I love how many change their username a little for AR.

Welcome wellarmed...cool to know your background in bikes.  I didn't think anyone ever stopped MXing...they just got their kids to come along.

Like Ron said, there's lots of opinions here, and the key is to not get too worked up about what people are saying, and keep an open mind.  You will disagree with many here, for sure, have fun with it.

Hope you do well with the headers, and hit the strip.  I may be one of the few here that think that the EC headers look well designed and show well on the dyno, but haven't really showed their hand yet on the strip since only a couple have gone with mixed results.

Go through the old threads in this section...there's a lot of info, much richer than AZ, and maybe there's things to contribute to old threads that you know about.

J
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sakimano
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« Reply #144 on: April 01, 2013, 06:53:23 PM »

Do they really show well on the dyno?

17-18 whp/wtq?

What do the other decatted options give?
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Apexit1
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« Reply #145 on: April 01, 2013, 07:26:05 PM »

I agree about the posts here.  Quantity may not compare but the useful information here is great.  Definitely helps that most of the more knowledgable guys are on here.
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Jspazz
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Ilspazzaneve


« Reply #146 on: April 01, 2013, 08:26:17 PM »

Do they really show well on the dyno?

17-18 whp/wtq?

What do the other decatted options give?

Stage I GIAC with headers and only 6300 rpm, making more power and gains than Stage II APR and 6900 rpm, yeah that dyno showed pretty well.  But again, ink, paper, whatever, it's just a dyno...;-)
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notarmed
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« Reply #147 on: April 01, 2013, 08:28:55 PM »

I still ride mx, went down and rode the other weekend with my old Honda boys

From my helmet cam: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jwqtHcsIws8

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Jspazz
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Ilspazzaneve


« Reply #148 on: April 01, 2013, 08:54:41 PM »

Nice video...fine, I think we're OT until someone goes to the track with headers.  

Yeah well_armed, it was sportbikes for me, I spent a decade terrorizing cottagers on the backroads up north and at the local road courses.  My old track bike was set up so perfect, worked-on showa fork and a Penske racing shock with a custom linkage, I had gone through a couple revisions until it was right.

My old riding buddies are trying to get me to a track on two wheels.  At 38 and two kids, I've graduated to the cage only at the track for a few years now, but they're trying to pull me back in...

I may start MX-ing though, I spend time up north in the summer and it seems like something I'd rather be doing than risking my ass to pavement and armco...someone died pretty much every year on the road courses around here when I was riding.
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sakimano
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« Reply #149 on: April 01, 2013, 08:59:45 PM »

Do they really show well on the dyno?

17-18 whp/wtq?

What do the other decatted options give?

Stage I GIAC with headers and only 6300 rpm, making more power and gains than Stage II APR and 6900 rpm, yeah that dyno showed pretty well.  But again, ink, paper, whatever, it's just a dyno...;-)

Huh?

What car is that? 

Anyway that doesn't show much about delta from decatting vs headers.   Which is the point.   I don't think I've seen anything on the dyno that shows the headers add much over just hfc etc.  Definitely not in acceleration results.
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